Aug 26, 2020
Ana: Hello, and welcome to Community Association Matters, the podcast that serves homeowner and condominium associations in Florida. And I say Florida now, because we are serving not just Southeast Florida, but also Southwest Florida with offices in both Miami and Fort Myers. So we're very excited about that opportunity. And as always, our goal here is to educate board members and owners of multifamily and even commercial units about the laws that pertain to being a board member and condominium and homeowner associations. As well as what to do to maintain your building, your common areas and, and make sure that you prevent liability and mitigate any problems that may come up.
So being from Florida, being in Florida, we all live with hurricanes.
That is a part of life. It's something that we've grown, adapted to if you will. And part of living in a hurricane area is being prepared. Knowing what to do, having a plan in place that will get you through that difficult challenge, and then the aftermath. What do we do afterward? Because everybody talks about hurricane preparation, but not a lot of conversations go on about what actually happens after.
So today I've asked my friends, Francis and Rob to join us there from SunFlo Roofing. They have a lot of different expertise, obviously, roofing is one of them, but they also work with one of the leading public adjusting firms in the State of Florida. And they're going to talk to us a little bit about what happens afterward. So I want to welcome Francis and Rob to the show. How are you guys doing?
Francis: Good.
Rob: Good.
Francis: Good morning. Thanks for having us.
Ana: My pleasure. Thank you for being here. So as we start the podcast, I always ask my guests to tell us a little bit about themselves. Tell us a little bit about your company. And I know Francis, you said that nowadays we're all working from home with COVID. Of course, we have on top of that hurricane season starting here. And I know you said Robert is going to be on mute for part of the show because he's got his little one. So he doesn't want to be that newscaster that had his kids walking in. So I'll, I'll give the floor over to you, Francis, and share a little bit about SunFlo.
Francis: I locked my door, but you know, we have a dog in the house this week, so at some point, you might hear that, but yes, let’s talk SunFlo. That's short for Sunshine, Florida. Florida is known for its sunshine, but it's also known for its hurricanes. It's really bad weather here in South Florida we don't get as much hail, but it's very common in Central and North Florida. Obviously we also get the summer thundershowers which create a lot of rain. We get a lot of tropical weather. SunFlo itself is a roofing division of a group of, construction and companies specializing in residential, commercial, new construction, rebuilds, remodels, and we have a very robust practice in insurance claims, repairs, and rebuilds.
Our company is comprised of four owners. Rob and I are two partners in the ownership group. We have partners in the Panhandle, Central Florida, and South Florida. So we're kind of spread around the state. So each of us has an individual experience. You know, we have a broad knowledge base, licensing, and certifications throughout the State of Florida in an array of construction, remediation, and repair disciplines. We jointly possess licenses. We're state-certified building contractors, state-certified roofers, licensed, we're certified mold assessors, and certified mold remediation. We’re certified in home inspections and building inspections.
So, Sunflo incorporated to bring the roofing portion of all these disciplines, that we were doing in a number of these different companies, together. We've been in roofing, between all of us in the partners since 1997. We've put on probably 4,000 roofs during that time. So roofing repair and replacement is one thing that we have a lot of experience in. And so we're going to focus on today.
A lot of what we do when there is an insurance claim actually brings a lot of these disciplines together because the roof is the first part of the building that comes off. But once it's done, it's the most essential portion or ‘the envelope’ as they call it, then you know you've got damage to the inside. You've got structural damage. You've got a lot of moisture, you've got damage to some contents. So we have experienced in dealing with all that and, and we've done, as I said, over 4,000 roofs, new construction builds, including small unit, you know, 30 unit developments, multimillion-dollar family residences, commercial properties over 20,000 square feet, and multifamily housing. We've done emergency catastrophe response, single-family homes to very large structures. For example, during Hurricane Michael, we remediated about 250 homes, put on about 80 or 90 roofs on those homes in the panhandle. Water, hurricane, fire, mold, trauma scene, viral, bacterial in structures, from single-family homes ranging up to 450,000 square feet.
After Hurricane Irma, we remediated the airport Sheraton, which is next to the golf course there by the airport. You can see it from the 836. So we actually had to go in. We had to completely tear out all it, I think it was 400 plus rooms. It's a 350,000 square foot facility. We did the mold remediation, clean, prepare everything for rebuilding, and so forth.
Between our various companies and disciplines, we have a lot of experience, dealing with insurance, not just for the single-family home, but for large commercial structures, formal type, multi-unit, residential. Insurance claims management for repairs is a portion of the business that we're involved in. That really is probably it's kind of esoteric because it's not so much just the construction side of it and the repair and the understanding all that, it’s dealing with the bureaucracy of insurance companies a little bit.
So, one of the things that we offer as part of what we do for our particular clients and it's something we're going to recommend that all your property managers and all your audiences in the business, or if you're a, you know, a property owner of a commercial structure is to get into a basic maintenance plan with a roofing company.
Ana: Let's talk about that and about the public adjusting. We're going to segue into that because we have a public adjusting division in our company. So it's perfect that this is something you guys have experience in. That's something that's important after. Let's talk about the maintenance plan. What do you think is a good plan that HOA’s, multifamily, commercial, or anybody really with a roofing structure can undertake now in preparation for a hurricane.
Francis: OK, so the first thing is obviously, there are some things you'll do in advance and we don't want to wait ‘til the last minute. Then there are some things that obviously are going to be done at the last minute. The more you can get done in advance before a hurricane approaches, the less your management team has to deal with in those few precious hours right before a storm approaches.
So an annual inspection, so regular inspection will identify minor damage that can expand in the larger damage when you have strong winds. Leaking that may not seem like a big deal now, but if you have a major rain event and a major winds all of a sudden you're gonna have major leaking into a structure that can cause a lot more damage and much greater loss in terms of payments to the internal structure and the contents.
So basic maintenance, these are some things that you should be doing at all times and, you know, any missing shingles, broken tiles, loose or leaking flashing, any other anomaly in the roofing system should be identified and addressed properly. So, as I mentioned for our customers, and it's something you're going to want to look into, and any property managers in the audience are going to want to discuss with their particular contractors, roofing companies. We have a basic annual plan, a maintenance plan, where we come in and we do an initial inspection and then we renew the inspection every year. But the basic initial primary inspection when we come in is identifying the existing damage that requires needed attention to repair. Establish the structural and accessory details for future reference, so we know that we're dealing with a number of squares and that's the overall size of the roof. What accessories, how many penetrations, the type of penetrations, the slope, what kind of roof is it, what's the surface made out of tile, shingle, metal, whatever. So we already know what we're dealing with. We can give the property manager a better idea of exactly what his roof is all about. Where is it in service life? And then we also advise them about any elements that require their attention if a storm is approaching. Cause sometimes, for storm prep, you need to know what are the closable vents on these particular buildings? What particular removable, dangerous attachments. Is there any removable things that you guys can do to maybe make sure? Cause that's one thing that we often deal with. Folks will put a satellite dish up on the eve, or some kind of flag pole or something else. So that in a wind event, if that tears off it’ll rip off your eve too, all of a sudden it's rough. So those are the kinds of things that we point out to them. Then obviously we provide general basic repair to reduce costs and, and priority response after the loss. And this is particularly important because we've been to a lot of hurricanes and I'm going to tell you when we roll into the city the first thing everybody wants, but it's the hardest thing to come by is a tarp for your roof. So when we priority mitigate damage and we'll talk a little bit about mitigation, later, but we mitigate the damage immediately. We prioritize our plan. We handle the whole entire process and more importantly, we take all the documentation and we'll talk about that as well, but we go ahead and document all the damage for the insurance claim purposes, in a little bit
Ana: about that. So now, you know, let's say an association or an owner of a multi-family has done everything that they can to get their roof system ready. Hurricane comes in and there's significant damage cause we know that even a category one hurricane can cause significant damage, especially to an older roof system. What is our first step? What should we do right after hurricane? There's damage and we're getting calls about a roof leak.
Francis: Okay. So, after a storm or any loss of event really, you know, the fire, a leak. We dealt with a large condominium complex, in Lake Buena Vista last year. It was six towers, all 12 stories each and a heater burst on one of the towers and soak the whole entire tower. And while we were there remediating it a heater burst in the tower next door. So, you know, all these sorts of things happen. It isn't always a hurricane that you prepare for and plan for. When a loss occurs, you should always have the same process in place, no matter what kind of loss it is.
The first thing you're going to do is you're going to document, document, document. We help with that. We'll rush right in and we take all the photography, be it interior, be it exterior. We take all the measurements. We take all the materials samples that we need to do all that.
If it's an interior, for example, and there are bacteriological issues, so maybe a toilet burst on a fourth-floor or overflows and it, and it is going down the elevator shaft. I mean, we run into things like this. And so, you know, those kinds of things, it's important to be able to sample all the materials, sample everything that you have in the structure, so you know what needs to be remediated.
So documentation is the first and most important thing because that documentation is what's going to support your claim. It's going to make sure, number one, you get coverage and number two, that they pay for everything that they're supposed to pay.
Cause remember you’ve been paying all these premiums. Now it's time for you to get what you paid for. The next most important thing is to mitigate any further damage. Pretty much every policy from a small homeowner policy all the way to the largest commercial policies have a mitigation clause and it is the responsibility of the insured that when a loss does happen to mitigate, to stop, any further damage, to take all steps they reasonably can to stop any further damage from happening. This is obviously to maintain the integrity of the structure, but really, more importantly, to protect the insurance company from having a hundred thousand dollars loss turning into a $500,000 loss. When it comes to roofing, that means you have to tarp immediately. And typically after a hurricane that's one of the hardest things to come by. Your insurance policy, most insurance policies, include an emergency response section and an emergency mitigation section. Because they require you to do this, they're also going to pay for it. But the problem isn't always paying for it, the problem is getting somebody to do it. So that's one of the things we guarantee for our clients. It's something you're going to want to discuss with whoever you've got a relationship with as a property manager, business owner, or property owner, in advance. Say, Hey, you know, when a hurricane strikes in South Florida, I want to know I can make a phone call if my roof is blown off, and that you guys are going to be there to take care of it.
Ana: A tarp doesn't always work in all roofing systems. Does it?
Francis: No. Unfortunately, we have run into scenarios where there's other things that you can do. They've got the wraps now. Shrinkwrapping is another thing that is extremely expensive. The insurance company sometimes balk at paying for that under their emergency services clause.
Ana: Talk a little bit about that. What exactly it is that for those who don't know what it is?
Francis: So with the shrinkwrapping, they'll actually come in and they'll put a membrane on your roof that they can then use heat to shrink right onto the surface. It works especially well for tile, and for roofs that are really cut up, for certain situations. It's also exceedingly expensive. A lot of times putting one of those on is especially for a smaller structure. It's going to be half or two-thirds of the cost of a new roof. The advantage of it is, it's a lot more durable. Well, when we've done it, it'll last a couple even several months. Hurricane Michael is an example. Every time we will put on a tarp, a week later we get a cold front blow through. It was in October, I think that the hurricane hit and that was in the panhandle and now you're into November. And so you have cold fronts blowing and it gets really cold in the panhandle of Florida. It's not at all like South Florida, you know, and you've got all this hot.
Ana: We’re different countries.
Francis: Yeah. they say the further south you go, the further North you get, they say. Or the further North you go, the further South, you get, if you’re going in that direction, . Every time we get a cold front blow through we get 20, 30, roofs, we have to go to re-tarp. What happens in a catastrophe situation, is most reasonable adjusters understand that. If you've made a reasonable effort to put a tarp on, if your roofers come out and done what they can, that is not going to be a reason that's going to hold up, especially if you get to the third-party arbitration or God forbid court, they're not going to be able to deny you over that. Now, if it's a dereliction. If you've had a leak in your roof for two months and you haven't bothered to tarp, that you've never cared, you let it go to seed, the inside is all wet and everything else, or much worse, which we see sometimes, if you've had a claim, they paid you to repair it and you didn't spend the money to repair it and then you had a subsequent claim, they're going to deny you. And, this is one of those situations where you want to make a good-faith effort. And a lot of times intent is a very important thing in the law. It's the same thing with insurance intent is something that you're always going to want to be shown to have good faith in your dealings with your insurance company. Even though, and we'll discuss that as well, once you get into the claims process, it's a bit of an adversarial process, but, you still want to show a good faith effort to tarp the roof, and so forth. We don't use shrink wrapping very often because most insurance companies want to balk at it, especially for very large structures. So in most cases, you know, we are able to talk with traditional tarping techniques. It's really about how you hold down the tarp. And in most cases as well, unless the roof is completely blown off, which you'll see in our more catastrophic wind events, such as we did Michael, there's no amount of tarping is going to help you get the decking is exposed. If trusses are exposed.
Most leaks are usually confined to specific areas and they can be covered by a 20 by 20, 20 by 30 tarp, with the right tie-downs. So after mitigating damage, which is exceedingly important, the next thing you're going to do is you're going to, hopefully, have your licensed contractor come out and look at it and start putting together a file. You're going to file a claim. The adjuster is going to come out and you're going to want to make sure that your contractor is there to meet with them and is prepared to show them if they're experienced in the claims process, where the specific areas are. What they're looking for. Why there's damage there. You don't want to leave an adjuster to their own devices. And this is something we do for all our clients is every adjuster onsite inspection, we're there. If they send out an engineer after the fact, we're there. So again, this is protecting yourself. These are the things you're doing after the claim happens to protect yourself and make sure that, at every step of the way, you have a hand in the process and are guiding the process towards a favorable outcome of the claim. And then at this point, also you should start thinking about who's going to be your public adjuster/attorney if it goes in that direction. This always needs to be in the back of your mind, especially if you're dealing with larger claims. If you're dealing with a large, complex, multi-unit complex, you could be looking at a million-dollar roof plus. So the adjuster is going to dot their I's, cross their T's to make sure there isn't something there that they can deny or less than coverage you.
So those are some of the things you can do right after the storm passes, just to make sure that you're protected. Document, make sure that you have a lot of documentation, that the evidence is there, that you can prove it. And that if you have to go in front of an arbitrator or somebody else, that you could present the evidence and they're going to look at it and they're going to say, yeah, there was a loss here, why did you deny this Mr. Insurance company? Second of all, you're going to want to mitigate any further damage. Third of all, you're going to want to have somebody who knows how to look at that damage and preferably have them do the documenting for you, prepare a file, meet with the adjuster, help guide the process. Because again, adjusters are not licensed, construction professionals. They're licensed and trained in how to handle a claim and how to read policy language, and how to interpret policy language. They're not licensed and trained in the construction trades. So you're there to be that professional. Even though it's a little bit of an adversarial process, as your representative, your contractor is able to say, ‘Hey, Nope. This is why this is here. This is why we have to do this way. This is the code for has been this. If we're going to pay for this roof, we have to pay to have all these other things done.’ So, and then, as I said, the last thing is to begin thinking about your public adjuster and attorney options shouldn't get denied, or even if you're not denied at the negotiation stage.
Ana: So one of the things we talked a little bit about this before the recording started, during Wilma and Irma, we were both very active in getting our clients to get an adjuster because we feel that getting an adjuster is the best way to have somebody fight for your rights. A lot of times we, as cams, are not familiar with the intricacies of an insurance policy and that's something that a public adjuster can help in. So we found that associations that hired an adjuster usually received twice as much, if not three times as much, as associations that did not hire an adjuster. And it's something we recommend and that's why we started our own division because, after Irma, some of the issues were that the adjusters were so busy and so overwhelmed because everybody was filing claims, that we kind of lost track of some of the, in other words, they didn't proceed against certain cases because they were so busy and so overwhelmed that they wanted to go after the one that was a for sure claim versus the one that, you know, had minor roof damage.
So, let's talk a little bit about that. So now we've done what we can to mitigate. We've hired an adjuster. And we're into that process of working with them and, and trying to get the most that we can for a client. So what are some of the things that associations can keep in mind when they hire an adjuster in which they expect in that process?
Francis: So the, so let me make it clear, I don't think any association, any homeowner, anybody should go alone in the claims process. And I tell this even to my personal friends. I don't want this to be an insurance bashing session because I think insurance companies are a very important part of the process, and most insurance adjusters that I've met are conscientious people doing their job. However, let's make something clear. The minute you file a claim, the nature of your relationship with the insurance company has changed. You've gone from being a customer to becoming a liability on their books. So the adjuster is not a customer service person. They're not there to make nicey nice with you and make the whole customer service experience. They're there to make sure that if the insurance company has to pay this, that they're only going to pay for exactly what they have to pay for by the letter of the contract.
Okay. So the first thing you're going to do, even before any loss, and this goes back to the whole, what do you do before hurricane season, is, and this is very important, review your policy. Okay. It's very important that when your agent sends your new annual renewal over to you, don't just take it, you don't just file it, and wait till the hurricane strikes to find out what's in it. There's a few things you're going to want to look at and look at the declarations page, these are things that when you hire an adjuster, you talk to an attorney, you talk to anybody, even the insurance companies’ adjust after the fact, you already have knowledge and knowledge, as we always know is power. Know your deductible. The deductible is a very important thing, especially when it comes to catastrophes.
In the State of Florida and most states now, the insurance industry uses what's called a hurricane deductible. So you may think you have as a homeowner, let's say for example, normally you have a thousand dollar deductible, right? But if a hurricane strikes in the state of Florida, if any loss happens during a named catastrophe, during a named storm, you know, declared by, even if you're in Orlando and the named storm happens in Miami, you have wind storm damage during that time, believe it or not, you may be subject to hurricane deductible, which is multiples of your normal deductible. It can be 2%, 5%, even 10% of the overall value of the policy. So your homeowners’ association has a $5 million policy. You could be looking at a $500,000 deductible. Know what that's going to mean in terms of having them to do a special assessment. Good luck going back to your HOA if you're a property manager and saying, ‘Whoops, you guys got a half-million-dollar deductible here. We didn't really think about this and now there's going to be a special assessment.’ How does the board explain that to all the homeowners? You know, these are simple things that you can do right now to protect yourself and your property clients. So that's one thing, definitely know your deductible.
The second thing and this is very important, identify key exclusions. There are exclusions and they're listed in your dec page and those exclusions, believe it or not, sometimes contain a windstorm exclusion, crazy because live in the state of Florida, and as we all know, we deal with windstorms here. We actually had a case recently where a potential client called us out. Hey, we've got a bunch of missing tabs or shingles on a roof. Can you guys come have a look at it? We get out there. It's an adult assisted living facility, nursing home, with, you know, six or seven buildings and several outbuilding and they all had damaged. Shingles blown off everywhere. And for us, we’re looking for very specific things over key areas. It's a certain amount of the roof damage and some other things that I may go into that with some pictures in a little bit, but it's all there. This is a very supportable claim under a standard policy. I look at their dec page, they have a windstorm exclusion. They basically, one of the primary causes of roof damage in the state of Florida, and they excluded it out of their policy. Why? To save a few bucks on the premium. That's why. And a lot of times agents, you know, so it's very important in speaking to your agent. Hey, if you have any questions about your dec page, if you have any questions about your deductible, if you have any questions about your policy, call your agent. That's what they get paid for. They don't just get paid to renew your policy, get you to sign some paperwork, and collect permission. Agents like adjusters are licensed to read policy language and interpret it and explain it to customers. So he is there. She is there. Have her come out, explain to you, explain to your board, what is this policy about? What are these exclusions? Why don't we have this kind of coverage or that coverage? And what's it going to cost us if a wind storm hits, the deductible, questions like that. So, identifying key exclusions is important in the state of Florida. You definitely don't want a windstorm exclusion. You don't want a hail exclusion. You don't want any of those kinds of exclusions that are the bigger perils that we all experience here in Florida.
And then another thing you have to be aware of or beware of, is the right to repair. So insurance companies are starting to do this sometimes and basically what this gives them is the right to choose the contractor. And the reason they want to choose their own contractor versus you choosing yours is for a couple of things. Well, really the main is the same money. I mean, let's just get the bottom of it. So the contractors that work for insurance companies are on a program. They do the roofs at a very reduced cost. Anybody who's in a business, or works for a business, or owns a business, runs a business, knows that nothing in life is free. If they're going to do a job for half of what it normally goes for in the marketplace, where are they going to recapture the money? They're going to recapture the money from the homeowner or from the property? Because at the end of the day, they can't do the job for that much less than still make money. So with these program vendors, what they often do is they'll go out and they'll agree to the company's scope. Scope is what exactly the job entails to get done. And so a lot of times where insurance companies cut corners is not on a cost of the shingle or on the cost of the underlayment or on the cost of, you know, this kind of board or that board. It's on whether they're going to put in the, the same quality of underlayment that you have there before. It's whether they're going to approve to put in all this other stuff that you had there before, or that has to be done in order to do the job correctly. We'll talk a little bit about that in a minute
But then the last thing we definitely want to be looking for is note any changes to your policy. This is another one that a lot of folks don't really think about. The state of Florida requires insurance carriers to notify their customer if there are any changes to their policy. So at renewal time, you may get a letter in the mail, and really it's all that the state of Florida statutes requires to send them a letter, but you get letters in the mail all the time. Right? You've got a busy office and I'm talking to a general property manager, probably got a couple of assistants, a couple of people working out on the property, things like that, and a piece of mail comes in, if it's from the carrier, you need to look at it. Even if it looks like it's marketing, you know, either assign or have a responsible person, either in the property management team or on the board, have a look at anything that has to do with policy because they will change the policy and all of a sudden, now you've got this change. They're excluding this. They're changing the terms of that. And the state of Florida requires them to send you a letter, but it doesn't do you any good if you just kind of take that letter and you file it away and then you get your policy renewed and then disaster strikes and all of a sudden you're not covered or you have reduced coverage for it.
Ana: That's a very important point.
Francis: Hmm. Yeah. Oh, and the reason I make it as, cause we've seen these things before. These are all things from experience. We do a lot of insurance and you'd be surprised how often, you've been paying these premiums all these years, then you have a loss and as I said, the adjuster is not there to say, well, you know, you have a windstorm exclusion now, but we're going to go ahead and take care of you because you know, you're a good customer.
You know this is not American Express’ customer service department talking. They're not like, okay, you know what? We'll give you some points. We'll give you some miles. It's going to be good. No, they're going to ‘aha We don't have to pay these million dollars.’ That's what their job is. So that just covers some of the things with regards to that.
Ana: Now that we have our policy in place and we know what's covered, talk a little bit about the claims process. Maybe beginning to end, so we have an idea of what to expect.
Francis: So, and Rob's going to be able to jump in here because he has as much or more experience in getting on roofs the last 30 years with these adjusters, 25 years, with these guys. Storm blows through, it's safe for your team to go outside or to go to the property and start documenting, taking photography, have your roofer come out and mitigate, things of that nature? You're going to file a claim and the insurance company's going to provide you with a claim number and they're going to schedule an adjuster to come out. This can sometimes take a couple, several weeks, just even get an adjuster on a regular claim. After a catastrophe environment, it’s a little different because what they'll do is they have teams of field adjusters and these mostly are third-party adjusters, people that work for separate adjusting companies that represent the insurance industry. They may not be internal employees, but this is how they scale up after a storm. When, and I remember after Irma, and Katrina, Harvey out in Houston, all these storms that we've seen over the last 10, 12, 15 years is, there's armies of adjusters that are going out there and just signing paperwork, writing checks, signing paperwork, writing checks. So there’s a little bit of a different environment right after a catastrophe, but the process is basically the same. The adjuster is going to come out. They're going to inspect the damage. They're going to collect information in evidence. They're going to take their own pictures. They're going to do their own thing. This is why it is essential at this stage of the process to make sure that you're prepared for this. If your contractor can be out there, if your professional can be out there, you have a PA and this is when they should be out there as well, in conjunction with your contact and making sure that you have all the information that you need. You're going to go through and you're going to provide all the documentation you need to have. You're help guide the process. Some insurance adjusters are leery. The more experienced ones are going to be like, ‘Hey, no, wait a minute. I know what I'm doing.’ Well, you know what, at the end of the day, yeah, they do know what they're doing, but they're not licensed, construction professionals. So that's why it's important for our customers and our clients, why we're there.
I'm going to show you a perfect example of what we do if that's okay? This is an example of a roof of that we go out there, we meet with the adjuster, everything gets marked up, shows exactly where we've got damage. This has hail damage on this roof. So I want to go ahead and talk a little bit about this particular structure. You're going to see the missing shingles here, on the ridge cap. You're going to see, and Rob, you can jump in here, you know, this as well as anybody, you're going to see some of the hail hits, and you can see where it's been circled. This evidence is all there to prove, you know, ‘Hey, this roof needs coverage.’ This is a 44 building apartment complex that we're doing right now next to Universal Studios. We've gotten it approved for full coverage by the insurance company. Basically, and Rob was the one that managed this process, he was out there with the engineer. I'll let you talk a little bit more about it. Rob.
Robb: Sure. So like Francis says, it’s very important that you have a contractor there at all aspects during the claims process, whether it's with the adjuster, engineer. The reason being is because a lot of these insurance adjusters are fresh out of college. They’ve taken a certification and went through an estimating software class, but as a licensed contractor, we're there to actually point out, all the details of a roof, such as flashing and counter flashing. In this particular case, this was the adjuster out here on this complex, and those are his markings. So what I do also as a contractor, just in case this decides to go to litigation or gets denied, I take the pictures and photos of the adjuster's markings so that we have this in the file as well for the simple fact that the field adjuster obviously finds damage on these roofs. And we went on about 15 roofs and what they do is they do a test square, a 10 by 10 test square, and they circle so many hail strikes within that test square. So it's important that I'm there when this happens because I, I can give my knowledge, my expertise, my findings to the adjuster, build a rapport with him, and in this case, I took pictures of his markings, just to have in our file again. So that way, if it was denied we at least showed that the adjuster showed that this claim or this apartment complex had damaged as well. So, it's very important that we are there, not only as a representative of the HOA or, property managers, but to make sure we're documenting everything possible and treating every roof as if it’s a crime scene. Trying to find collateral damage on all the soft metals is crucial to support finding hail damage throughout the roof. And again, taking pictures of the adjusters. we also have an engineer that came out.
They sent an engineer after the adjuster, obviously because it's a large claim, so it's a high dollar claim. And when the engineer came out, we get we go up again to 15 buildings in hundred-degree heat and at that point, I've marked, I took pictures of all his photo, his documentation and helped to identify damage throughout, because it was actually, in this insurance policy, they had a wind exclusion. So when we were able to find that out initially, we went on the roof looking for him because we knew that there was a hailstorm in that area. So what we did was we helped the association file a claim under hail. Now had we made a mistake and try to put it under wind, it would've been denied. So we have to do our research and due diligence upfront to make sure that, you know, we are identifying the damage and making sure it's consistent with the policy. So there's a very important, like Francis said, as far as understanding your policy and making sure you're reviewing it annually. Especially when changes are happening.
Francis: So we, we went back through the weather reports, and we have applications that we use for this, and we identified a specific hail storm. Found hail damage, in order to get around that windstorm exclusion, and went back and just were able to support that before we even filed a claim. We did all our due diligence and prepared a whole entire report by the time that we talked to the adjuster and have it clean filed, we had all our ducks in a row. And that's, that's why we're always encouraging folks not to go it alone. Hire a professional. It's very important if your a property manager, even if you're just a regular homeowner, don't, don't go it alone. Hire somebody who knows what they're doing, whether it be an adjuster, or an attorney, or a contractor like us that has the experience, that has connections with a lot of good adjusters and attorneys. This is not a process that you want to go through by yourself, because it's going to be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases after catastrophe, even if you're just a single-family homeowner.
So that's the first thing they come out, they're going to do their inspection. They're going to gather their documentation as you saw. They're going to go back to their office. They're going to put all this together. They're going to look very closely, very closely at your policy and the evidence that they have. And, by the way, their investigation will very likely, especially the more money it's worth, include an interview with yourself, or your team, or anybody who was on the property when the thing occurred. Anybody who has knowledge about, they may see some things depending on the type of claim it is that there may have been a preexisting thing here that this wasn't caused so much by a peril, as by a dereliction of maintenance and things of that nature.
That's another reason why it is important to maintain your roof because that's something that they're always going to use if they can, poorly maintained structure, to deny your claim. So they're going to go back to their office, they’re going to make a determination of coverage. And this is a very important step in the whole claims process. Are they going to pay for it? I mean, that's the first thing that you and, and your side is trying to get them to give you a positive determination of coverage. If the positive determination of coverage is made. Then the next question is, what is the scope? The scope is what is it going to take to fix this job and leave this structure the way that it was before the loss occurred. And this is really where all the questions come in, at that point. This is, if there's going to be, I don't want to see an argument, but there's going to be a big difference between yourself and your contractor, your adjuster, and the insurance company, it's going to be right here because the insurance company's going to come back, we run into this all the time. They don’t want to approve replacing flash. Well, why aren't you approving replacing flashing? We need to tear out all the old flashing in order to do the job correctly, right? We're going to, we're not going to take you all flashing with a bunch of nails and nail every single in the exact nail hole.
So a lot of times what the adjusters do is they start with, this is a negotiation, as I said before, and what is it that any good negotiator does? The first offer they make is always the lowest offer. So they're going to come out with a very stripped down estimate. and then, you know, that's what we have to come in, and that's where people who know what they're doing representing you come in and say, No. You guys aren't putting enough here to get this done the way it should be. Get us the best roof, the very best material, or the very best structure. This is what we have here before, and this is really what it takes to do this job right.
We had a case recently, where older tile roofs don't have decking underneath. They have first strips and basically, when you tear off the top, you have to come back and do re-decking because the codes have changed. Now, you actually need to put plywood down on all the trusses and have a deck underneath. Well, the insurance carrier didn't want to pay for that. They have to because there's a section of most policies called ordinance of code, and that means in order to repair a loss they have to make sure it's something code, which means if there's extra monies required to get the job up to code because it's, it's an older structure, which,
Robb: which that's also another, important, part of the policy. There's a lot of people that we've come across that do not have ordinance of law coverage in their policy. And what that means is if something needs to be brought up to code, it will be at the expense of the, of the insured to have to pay for that. So that's another important thing to make sure that you have ordinance and law coverage in your policy.
Francis: And that's a very good point because in this case, it ended up almost doubling the cost of the roof in order to do it up to ordinance of law. Now, this homeowner did have ordinance of law. The adjuster declined it. Declined to pay for it, even though they had approved for the decking on a same exact roof, just a few doors over. So obviously they felt
Ana: What was their reasoning?
Francis: They don't always need one.
Robb: The same company and the same adjuster!
Francis: It's the same adjuster, not just the same. So these are the things we run into. They had ordinance of law. And then that's one of those where, they basically hired an attorney and so once they get a law firm, the lawyer, all of a sudden you get it approved.
Ana: Right.
Francis: You know that's where you need somebody like an adjustment attorney. You need somebody who knows what they're saying. Do you know what an average homeowner on their own wouldn't have even known that their policy actually paid for this? They would have never known that the adjuster had approved the same exact house eight doors down with the exact same kind of roof that had approved it. Yeah, for the same insurance company, the same adjuster. So these are the things where definitely having a professional on your side is going to make all the difference in the world. In this case, tens of thousands of dollars of difference. So, at that point, once they make a determination of coverage, really what it comes down to is what's that coverage going to be worth.
And that's where, again, it is critical to have somebody who is representing you that can help you in that process, make sure that, ‘Hey, this estimate from the insurance, good, it looks good to me.’ And they're going to give me all this money. Right. I'm going to go put this new roof on, or I'm going to rebuild this interior or whatever the case is, but it's not.
Ana: So talk to me a little bit about the role of an adjuster.
Francis: Okay. So, and again, you know, I like insurance company adjusters. We have good relationships with a lot of them. This is not even about saying that they're out there to get you, but they have a very specific role. The adjuster's role is to determine what, whether coverage is available, and if so, established the insurance companies’ scope to do that job and complete the repairs within the limits of that coverage. Okay. That's their job. Their job is to interpret the policy, look and see what happened at your property, and then make sure that they're only doing as much as the policy allows them to do. Okay. The adjuster represents the insurance company. They don't represent you. They do not represent the insured. They're not there to do the insured’s bidding or to help the insured in any way. Their job is, now it seems like they might be there to help you because they end up signing the check because they have to.
A field adjuster may come out at first. So there's a couple of different kinds of adjusters and this is important to understand. When you have a claim, they're going to send an adjuster out. Especially after a catastrophe, the chances are it's gonna be a field adjuster. This is the person that's going to come out and gather the evidence and walk the property and take photography and prepare the file. But the field adjuster rarely has any authority to make a determination of coverage. They have very little authority to make decisions on the claim. It's a desk adjuster. That's somebody inside of the insurance company. So this desk adjuster may have a bunch of field adjusters for gathering evidence. The desk adjuster is the one that's actually reading the policy. They're an employee of the insurance company while the field adjuster, maybe a third party, outside contractor. The field adjuster, we see this all the time, it comes out and looks around and says, wow, there's a lot of damage here. Wow. This is going to get covered. You're good to go. You know, let me take all this information down and then they go back and two weeks later you get a call from the adjuster says we're denying your plane. So that's also very important to understand. So the adjusters are going to come out and they're going to review the evidence, they're going to make a determination of coverage. That is their job. The adjuster is trained and licensed to interpret policy language. That's the only thing that their license allows them to do. They're not licensed, construction professionals. They don't, they haven't any training in construction trades. As Rob said, we run into a lot of kids, wet behind the ears have been out of college two, three years. You know, they took some insurance courses in college. They come into an insurance company. They start out as a rookie, they get their sit for their license. The insurance company, especially after catastrophe, when they need bodies, throws them out on a, on a roof and all of a sudden, these guys were supposed to know everything about how to build a roof. That's why also a public adjuster who has a lot of experience with somebody who can help you a lot because this person's probably seen and been around. And if they've got more experience than the insurance company's adjuster then your at an advantage, and that's, that's very important, experience and knowledge is power.
So they're not trained to build anything. They're not trained on the code. They don't understand the state. They haven't taken a license. They haven't sat for all the tests to for the state of Florida building code. So that is an important thing to understand. Just because they deny your claim, if the damages there, if your licensed contractor says, ‘Hey, look, we do insurance roofs. We know that there's this many hail strikes. We know that there's this many missing tiles of broken tiles. We're lifting the tiles up. There's this many square feet, there's this many to go up two inches. You've got this many loose. It meets the criteria, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.’ Now, no, you've got that claim. Even if they deny you, pursue your next step, which is going to be, you know, having representation on your side, possibly even getting a lawyer. So, but the adjuster's role and this is very important is to represent the insurance company, to decide if and whether you've got coverage for this claim, they're not there to represent you or to do you any favors. So that's none of their role. And a lot of times people forget that. You want to see the insurance adjuster come out right after a hurricane, cause he's hopefully gonna sign you a check, but you have to be understanding that this is an adversarial process when it gets to the claims, to the level of the thing.
Ana: Is there anything that the association, the manager, or a multi-family real estate investor can do, throughout this process to help in this process to make it successful, make it a successful claim.
Francis: Absolutely. First of all, be nice to your adjuster. You know, Rob mentioned before getting all of these roots and building a relationship. We actually deal with a lot of the same adjusters in some of the markets over and over and over, because usually, it's a handful of guys that work for a particular large insurer. You're going to run into them. You want to be nice to those guys. You want them to understand you're there to just do your job. You're just there to protect, just as they're there to do their job. Don't ever lie, if you’re being investigated. You know, they're doing an interrogation, I call it interrogation and that’s what it feels like, they're interviewing you about the loss. Be honest. Those kinds of things, but, the most important thing you can do is to have your documentation for your claim. And I've mentioned this before. Rob used a term of crime scene and that's actually a funny term that we use internally. We don't really always talk about that with clients, but we treat it like a crime scene, for us, it's like CSI. When Rob gets on a roof and, you saw the pictures earlier, and kind of presents the adjuster, ‘Hey man, I just want to take it.’ He's already been up there a bunch of times. So that's why he's there for the meeting. He knows exactly where to lead this guy. Okay. ‘See what we have over here. I know you're going to do this many squares, that you're going to look at this whole area right here. At least this roof needs,’ they end up walking 15 buildings of a 41, 44 building complex. They’re prepared to approve the whole thing. So documentation is everything. And that's why we, for our clients who I always recommended, to let us do the documentation. We're going to come out and we're going to fix that roof anyway. So let us take the pictures. Let's prepare the file. Let us deal with the adjuster and managing that process, but it is important certainly that you have a good relationship with the adjuster and that you provide everything that they request from you, as quickly as possible.
The second thing is, if you can, if you're working with an experienced contractor or public adjuster, they're going to be able to help you prepare an estimate using Xactimate. And the reason you want to do that is, so I mentioned scope before, the insurance companies are going to put together an estimate that's going to be based upon what they think they need to do all the materials and labor and equipment that is going to be needed to put your roof together. They’re going to prepare that in software called Xactimate. So let's clarify something here, and this is something that's a misconception for a lot of people. We never negotiate the price of a roof. Nobody negotiates the price of the roof. Adjusters don't negotiate the price of a roof with anybody. What they negotiate is the scope. The pricing of every single line item is preset. The insurance industry uses a pricing schedule that has all the pricing for every single element of a structure in it, all the labor items, all the equipment, and tool items. That's all preset, depending upon which market you're in, what the market conditions are, even down to the zip code. So when we sit there and we negotiate with an adjuster, we're not talking with them about, it's a matter of fact unless you're licensed that adjuster, you're not really allowed, in the state of Florida to negotiate pricing, but we don't negotiate. And we don't tell the adjuster, well, instead of this and this first shingle paint this much, you're going to pay this much. No, we accept all their prices. So the problem is they say, well, we're only gonna, put in this many shingles. No, all this area has damage, you need to put in this many more shingles to do the job. So that ends up changing the bottom-line cost to the job. But the pricing is always set. The insurance companies have it in a program called Xactimate. We use Xactimate as well. If you're going to hire a public adjuster make sure that they either have access to a contractor like us that can do it for them and working for you and that they understand Xactimate and that they understand the process.
Right. So that's important, that you have an understanding of what the scope should be. Don't accept the insurance company’s scope or estimate. For example, if your car, if you had a car accident, you got a really nice BMW and you know, or it caught on fire, God forbid, and you're gonna want those leather seats back. And if the insurance company is going to come back to you with fabric seats or plastic seats or what, you know that's unacceptable,
Robb: Or even, even aftermarket. That's what they will tend to do. And the construction side of things to come with an off-brand or something like that, or poor quality.
Francis: They'll cut corners on quality of the materials or cut corners on the quantity of the materials. They'll cut corners on materials in general. I mentioned flashing before. Rob, I know you've run into a few of those here in the last few weeks. Why don’t you speak a little bit about some of those items that you fought for and gotten on some of the clients here in Orlando?
Robb: Sure. So just to give you an example after you’ve stripped down a roof to the decking, the most important part of that roof is the underlayment and the flashing. So what insurance companies tend to do is pay for a lot of those, light items, but they always don't want to put flashing in there or counter flashing, which that's the first area that's gonna leak after installing a new roof. Cause when you're tearing off a roof, you have L flashing, that may be damaged from tearing off a roof. A little pinhole can cause a leak in the L flashing. So what we typically do is we will, on our estimates, point out all the areas where there's L flashing, counter flashing to make sure that they cover that part of the roofing system that is crucial.
I can't tell you how many times, and again, not to knock on these adjusters, they just don't understand the construction of a roofing system. So sometimes it's just that they don't know. On average, most insurance estimates are short paid up to 35%.
And, on the scope of work or when they actually write a letter on what the estimate says that you reserve the right to supplement. And that's where we come in as the experts to make sure that they're making the insurance hold and that they're getting paid for like-kind material of the material that's currently on there.
Francis: So having your own scope that is your professional coming in and determining what is there, and what's really going to need to be done to put that roof back together, make sure it never leaks again, make sure that it's as good as, or better than it was before. Really is good, cause that's what the insurance company's on the hook for. That's critical. That's very critical. You know, Rob just talked about some examples where they may leave off a few things that may seem minor That somebody who's not versed in construction practices may not realize, and that critical little area of L flashing, that's where all of a sudden you've got a leak that can lead to something a lot bigger later.
The next thing you definitely want to do is communicate, communicate, communicate with your public adjuster, and your contractor. You're going to be getting a lot of stuff, especially the bigger the claim, in terms of, communication, mail, phone calls from your adjuster, from your insurance carrier. Make sure that they're in the loop on all of that. Especially when it comes to any meetings with engineers or adjusters. These people are representing you, they're there for you. If you've got an important court case ahead of you and you get a summons in the mail, you think you should mention it to your attorney? Yeah, probably. So same thing here. You know, because they're there to protect you and to make sure that at the end of the day, you get a positive outcome for your claim and that you get all the money and all the scope that you need to do that job right.
And then the final thing, and I hate to say this, but be prepared to fight for what you paid for. The moment you file a claim, I mentioned it before, you go from being a customer to being a liability. Be prepared to fight for all those premiums you paid for all those years. Okay. Your adjuster, your contractor they're on your side, help them help you. Be prepared if it takes litigation. If it takes going the extra mile to provide documentation to your adjuster, whatever they asked me for, make it happen. Cause at the end of the day, even though we're going to make nicey nice with these adjusters and we're going to do everything we can, you. It's an adversarial process. They're looking for every loophole. If they can deny the claim, they will.
Ana: And I agree with your assessment. I think that my experience has always been that they are very nice, but they do try to find a way to get out of paying what they have to pay. And they're always going to come in with a lower estimate, or maybe try to work on reducing the scope somehow, whatever the case may be. But having an adjuster and having professionals, such as yourself, certainly is going to help maximize the most that they can receive out of that claim.
Francis: And understand, we work very well with public adjusters. We were there to support them when they're on a case. We're there to help them put the estimate together, to help them get as much money for their customers. What they're trying to do at the end of you mentioned before you get two to three times, because that initial estimate for the insurance company leaves of a lot out. And that's why you want folks that know what you're really supposed to get it and to help you fight for it.
Robb: And to touch a little bit on that, when the apartment complex in 43 buildings, just so you know, they approved this right off the bat. Didn't have to go to attorneys. I built a great rapport with them. In fact, they are currently putting the estimate together and they're going to send it to me to review it before they send it for payment. So that's the type of relationship that we look to have with the engineers, the adjuster, certainly the insurance adjusters that we meet on-site. And establish that really good rapport. It means having the knowledge, and being able to identify damage and, talk, kind of say, like their language. And so they understand, goes a long way. So that's a great client for us now. And now they know we're looking out and we’ll inspect some other of their apartment complexes and facilities.
Ana: And the fact that you work in the panhandle means that you basically go anywhere in Florida, right?
Robb: Yes. So Orlando, Tampa, Panhandle, Miami.
Ana: Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us today. I can tell you that I've learned a lot and I'm sure that my clients and the listeners have as well. If they wanted to get ahold of you or talk to you a little bit about your services or maybe even hire you guys, how do they get more information?
Francis: Our 800 number for the entire state of Florida is 866-6SunFlo that's 866 6SunFlo. They can also go to sunfloroofing.com and again, SunFlo is not with a w on the end. It's short for sunshine Florida. We all love the sunshine here, but we get busiest when it's gone.
Ana: Absolutely. Well, to our listeners, thank you guys for joining us today. And, of course, you can get more information about us at alliedpropertygroup.net. And our phone number is (305) 232-1579. So thank you again, have a great day, you guys.
Robb: Thank you
Francis: Thank you so much.